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Poster: cashel Date: Apr 24, 2004 10:45am
Forum: prelinger Subject: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

1...Be careful when you hate a film...should you write a scrullious review? Remember that film could have great usefulness to another user. 2...Do NOT manipulate images dishonestly ( making a film that shows a person uttering a message that is totally repugnant to his ideals. Remember that you are an equal not a superior possessing extraordinary powers. 3...If you attack a person, do so in a honest manner, straight talking, full disclosure of all relevant facts and no sly innuedoes. Remember legal remedies apply

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Poster: uniQ Date: Apr 24, 2004 2:00pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

4. Learn how to type: when to use (') and (,), how to use carrage returns to seperate thoughts, when to use punctuation, etc, etc.

-uniQ

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Poster: cashel Date: Apr 24, 2004 2:04pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

my messages were typed quickly and with great reluctance. I can find more pleasant uses for my time

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Poster: MarcoEsc Date: Apr 25, 2004 4:29am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

> 2...Do NOT manipulate images dishonestly
> ( making a film that shows a person
> uttering a message that is totally
> repugnant to his ideals.

This is a silly "rule". People should respect the copyright or Creative Commons license assigned to the work. If it's in the public domain, then people can edit however they want and do what they want with the results. If the Creative Commons license allows derivative works, then people are free to derive whatever they want from the original.

However, if the Creative Commons license says "No derivative works", then that should be respected.

Whether or not your derivative work respects the ideals of the source material is irrelevant. The only applicable "rule" is the one that says not to use the media in ways that violate that media's license.

If the license allows derivative works, then there are no content-based restrictions on those derivations. If you don't want your material edited, then simply don't allow derivative works.

And thanks for that little visit from the grammar police...I don't know where we'd be without you guys.

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Poster: cashel Date: Apr 25, 2004 4:54am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

Even in a democracy,there are restrictions on what a person can do, If you want to test this take a public domain TV ad film made by a rich and powerful corporation. Now remake it and PUBLISH this new film which now declates that the corporation ,s product is total harmful rubbish. Good luck

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Poster: ridetheory Date: Apr 25, 2004 5:35am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

Well, if you re-edit a multi-national corporation's TV ad, of course they will sue you. That would be a civil action, and has nothing to do with your free speech rights. You still had the fair use right to edit their ad for commentary and criticism as part of U.S. copyright law. The fair use provision of that law would be your defense in the lawsuit.

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Poster: cashel Date: Apr 25, 2004 6:19am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

NOTE the archive,s computer has inserted my reply to you above your message. Sorry for any confusion

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Poster: Steve Nordby Date: Apr 25, 2004 10:28am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

"a rich and powerful corporation"

Aha, the key! Go ahead and twist and distort the statements of the poor and powerless! They won't sue, so they can be abused forever! But dare anyone re-edit the statements of the rich and powerful into something unacceptable you will burn in legal hell!

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Poster: cashel Date: Apr 25, 2004 10:47am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

no comment,

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Poster: ridetheory Date: Apr 25, 2004 3:52am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

> 2...Do NOT manipulate images dishonestly
> ( making a film that shows a person
> uttering a message that is totally
> repugnant to his ideals.

Why not? If a message is totally repugnant to me, don't I have a right to comment on it? Or would you only grant free speech to those who share your opinions?

Jack2, you've written multiple posts about how this annoys you, but editing films to change their meaning is a form of free speech. The film you are less than slyly alluding to, "Come Join the Fun" even has something of a disclaimer tag at the end, where the editor makes George Putnam say, "What you have just seen... (JUMP CUT) ...required editing... (JUMP CUT) ...to make it sensational." It is obvious that the film is edited, it is obvious that it is a comment and criticism of the original film "Perversion for Profit", and it is obviously free speech. (It is also particularly funny because it is a free speech commentary on someone who wants to curtail free speech!) Any viewers who don't get the jokes will fall victim to literary irony, where an elite audience laughs, and the indignant reactions of those who don't simply add to their enjoyment.

> Remember that you are an equal not a
> superior possessing extraordinary powers.

This seems to be a recurring theme in your posts. You have a real predudice against the supercilious, don't you?

LAY OFF THE SMART PEOPLE! They're the ones making excellent new films out of material in the archive. If the viewpoint of the resulting films isn't to your liking, TOUGH LUCK!

> 3...Remember legal remedies apply

Not, to the best of my knowledge, under U.S. copyright law. Not on derivative works which comment on and criticise the original. And especially not if the original is in the public domain.

The archive makes editable versions of films available, so it must expect people to edit them. It offers a forum to post these edited films, so it actively supports free speech and creative re-use of the materials. If it supports free speech, it must expect to disagree with the viewpoints of the editors from time to time. As should you. Roll with it, jack2.

This post was modified by ridetheory on 2004-04-25 10:52:15

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Poster: cashel Date: Apr 25, 2004 4:32am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

Most of your reply consists of a defence of a film made by Yrafalgar, Replying to you I say LET TRAFALGAR SPEAK FOR HIMSELF. When HE does so, I will answer HIM. My answer to the remainder of your message is that a film cannot publish LIES and expect to be accepted ,legally, ethically or morall.y as FREE SPEECH.However. I will defend your right to express in its entirety the entire contents of your previous reply. That is freedom of speech

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Poster: ridetheory Date: Apr 25, 2004 5:44am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

You are mistaken. Free speech takes many forms; the edited films are a perfectly valid form of free speech. You don't like what they're saying, and expressing that is a form of free speech.

Encouraging censorship, even self-censorship, is anti-free speech.

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Poster: cashel Date: Apr 25, 2004 6:06am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

PLEASE type "mclibel" in the google search bar. You will get the true story of two young people who published a pamphlet called "whats wrong with McDonald" which lead to the longest trial in British History. They suffered many years of anguish before the trial was finished.

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Poster: ridetheory Date: Apr 25, 2004 6:49am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

I am familiar with the McLibel suit.

A big company may sue and crush someone. But the person commenting on and criticizing the corporation still has fair use and free speech rights, which would be part of their defense. The difference is that the lawsuit is a civil action and fair use is a civil right. You seem to be confusing the two.

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Poster: summerseve Date: Apr 25, 2004 6:37am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

Hey Jack, good to hear from you again.
I thought we had cleared this up, but you have asked me to respond again, so here goes.
Once again, I assert that my little movie is a parody. Parody is a protected form of speech in these here United States. I'll refer you to Jerry Falwell v. Hustler Magazine for that one. Hustler published a fake liquor ad parody that said Falwell had drunken incestuous sex with his mother. Falwell took it to the Supreme Court...and lost.
You refer to the McLibel case. That case took place in England, and is thus totally irrelevant to this discussion. Anyway, despite the damages award, McDonald's pretty much took one on the chin.

Finally, I'd like to break this down into terms anyone can understand, and please understand, that I mean no offense to you or anyone else personally:

I SIMPLY DON'T CARE.

Can I put it any more plainly than that? Feel free to write again, and I'll re-phrase it in as many ways as it takes.

Love ya--T

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Poster: cashel Date: Apr 25, 2004 7:04am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

Yes, I agree to a peaceful truce. I eagerly await your next film

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Poster: summerseve Date: Apr 25, 2004 8:19am
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

A truce it is then. Peace be with you.

And for everyone else...

Come see what all the fuss is about! It's sexy! It's controversial!
http://www.archive.org/movies/details-db.php?id=5395

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Poster: Lewis Payne Date: Apr 28, 2004 2:50pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

Lol! Obvious parody (where the heck did McLibel come into it?). Absolute genius. I'd love to see jack2's review for the original Perversion for Profit. ;)

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Poster: summerseve Date: Apr 28, 2004 11:30pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

Hey Lewis,
Re: your "obvious parody" comment-- you're referring to certain forum postings, right? If that is the case, then yeah...absolute friggin' genius. Talk about being committed to a character! Olivier would be proud. Or maybe Andy Kaufman...

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Poster: Lewis Payne Date: Apr 29, 2004 1:08pm
Forum: prelinger Subject: Re: 3 rules for decency to enhance the archive,s prestige

Haha, well not quite... I was referring to the video in question. jack2 made vague rumblings about libel and slander, which clearly do not in any way apply to something that is as obvious a parody as that video. :)